[NaTaS]

via ESPN

The NCAA has banned Penn State from Bowl Games for 4 years, fined the University $60 million and has vacated all wins from 1998-2011 taking away Joe Paterno's all-time victory record. Is this enough?

This post has been edited by NaTaS: 23 July 2012 - 09:04 AM

[JoseR21]

It's just right. Enough to punish University and not punishing the current players.

[Milla4Prez63]

I am fine with this. Penn State is now screwed long term.

[Rain Man]

I am all for punishing the individuals that were involved with these scandals. However, these punishments to the program in general, and quite frankly the integrity of the football program are far too harsh. The fines I'm alright with. The school obviously made a mistake hiring and allowing this to slip through their vines.

Taking wins away from the legend of Joe Paterno though? 111 wins are erased from his families legacy and the schools legacy. That's crazy. He didn't cheat on the field, he didn't give out free items to come aboard with Penn State. Sorry, but how can you punish the football programs legacy for something that had nothing to do with the program other than the people that were involved? Maybe it's the fact that I know someone attending Penn State that makes me feel this way, could be, but I just think destroying an entire legacy of on field achievements is straight silly.

This would be like the NFL erasing all of the records that Jerry Rice accumulated in his career over something that happens to him off the field after he retired. It just wouldn't happen. The NCAA heard rumblings from the public and acted upon it. They can't take the pressure. That's been clear for a long time now. What really needed to happen was to fine the individuals involved and maybe even the school.

Next, taking scholarships from the program? Too harsh as well. I think the NCAA overstepped their bounds a little. They are killing the program when this has NOTHING to do with football.

I believe Brandon Noble (Former Penn State DT) said it best a moment ago on ESPN The Herd. The players, current and past, are being punished for something that they had nothing to do with.

[seanbrock]

I'm a PSU fan and I think it's pretty crazy people are still defending Paterno. What he did was despicable. You can make all the excuses you want but when he put his own reputation and the reputation of the school before the children that Sandusky has been molesting ever since the 70's apparently he doesn't deserve to be remembered as a great coach, but rather as a piece of trash. I'm glad the tore down the statue and they should have erased ALL of Paterno's wins. Anyone who thinks JoePa didn't know what was going on is nuts.

[NaTaS]

Chris D, on 23 July 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I believe Brandon Noble (Former Penn State DT) said it best a moment ago on ESPN The Herd. The players, current and past, are being punished for something that they had nothing to do with.

I agreed with much of what you posted, but not this last bit. Whenever a program is punished there is going to be players and coaches that are punished for something they had nothing to do with.

Take the USC sanctions: A two-year bowl ban and forfeiture of games from the 04-05 season and all games from the 05-06 season. Dont you think there were kids on that team that were punished for something they had nothing to do with?

The punishment to a program is usually going to hurt some innocent people. You cannot let that dictate the punishment.

[Rain Man]

I'm not defending Paterno. I'm defending the football program and the players that have played in the past. To diminish someones legacy for something they made a mistake with and did off the field having nothing to do with football is just overdone.

Taking 65 scholarships away from the program because of something a couple of dirtbags did that had nothing to do with football? Absolutely stupid. Let's decimate a program and hurt students involved with the program currently because some faculty member wanted to touch boys in his office. It's ridiculous. You can sit and say "Oh but they can switch schools and play immediately", but to think that won't still hurt those players is just a sign of ignorance.

Why are kids who are doing everything right on the football field being punished for something that they had nothing to do with? It wasn't the football program that performed these horrible acts, it wasn't the football program that covered these acts up either. It was a few members of staff that did all this. There is no reason to punish a football program for something like that. Punish the school, punish the individuals responsible, but not the program.

[Maverick]

NaTaS, on 23 July 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

I agreed with much of what you posted, but not this last bit. Whenever a program is punished there is going to be players and coaches that are punished for something they had nothing to do with.

Take the USC sanctions: A two-year bowl ban and forfeiture of games from the 04-05 season and all games from the 05-06 season. Dont you think there were kids on that team that were punished for something they had nothing to do with?

The punishment to a program is usually going to hurt some innocent people. You cannot let that dictate the punishment.

Should the "program" be punished or the people involved with this case? Can you separate the two? What makes up the actual football "program"?

Just saying some questions aloud that could be discussed.

This is a very, very tricky situation.

[JoseR21]

Well according to what the punishment is, none of the players are really being hurt, they're free to go as they please and play immediately. The one truly hurt is Penn State University.

[oochymp]

I don't like taking Paterno's wins, what he did was completely despicable and indefensible and will define his legacy, but it doesn't change what he did on the football field. Paterno's legacy will be a balance of the two, an example of what can happen when we deify a football coach and put his program on a pedestal. To me, vacating the wins screams of the NCAA deciding they don't want Paterno at the top of the wins chart because it would force people to think about (and probably talk about) his legacy and the fact that Penn State let the football program take such control of their university that they allowed this to go on without taking action. I think Penn State and college football should be left with that reminder. Paterno should have been fired in '98 when he started defending Sandusky's indefensible actions and basically the NCAA has let the record reflect that having happened. His wins should have stayed to force us to remember what happens when football is placed above all else.

[Rain Man]

JoseR21, on 23 July 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Well according to what the punishment is, none of the players are really being hurt, they're free to go as they please and play immediately. The one truly hurt is Penn State University.

As stated before, that's simply ignorance. They will go from being starters to probably backups who won't get much playing time. What's this say for players that want to play in the NFL? It says that they can see their stock fall big time. What's this say for guys who play football but attend the school for academic purposes?

You can easily separate the football program from the school and individuals involved. Yes, the program makes up much of what Penn State stands for - but you can say that for nearly every NCAA sanctioned school with a football program. When you say that they are the same thing, you are (maybe not intentionally) blaming the fans for making the school this way.

So the question is what do you do to punish the school and individuals involved but not the football program, it's tough, but there are ways.

- Fine the school some big money for allowing these massively large issues of integrity to get through the vines in the hiring process, no matter how long ago these hiring were.

- Put a ban on these individuals from working with any NCAA sanctioned programs which include all sports.

I know maybe it seems like I'm trying to defend Paterno and the people involved, but I'm not. Simply just trying to defend the legacy of Penn State in general. The school is so important to the history of the NCAA and now you are going to stand a chance to destroy the football program for an extremely long time.

The NCAA crumbled under the pressure of the general public. How is that fair? Do you see judges basing decisions in criminal matters on the pressure of the public? Not typically, and rarely ever. So why is the NCAA doing so? As a sanctioning body as large as they are, one would believe that they would hold themselves to a high standard. I believe that these sanctions on Penn State were more to appease the general public because they wanted to gain even more fan support, rather than to look at what is fair with the situation. Maybe that is seen as a little close minded to say, but is it really?

[Mathias]

Good.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F]

Everything I'm fine with except taking the wins away from the school.

The wins needed to be vacated because they don't want Paterno being honored as the winningest coach, then don't them as wins for him.

Vacating the wins for the program, beyond discounting them for Paterno, doesn't really do anything other than make the NCAA and people calling for hardcore sanctions feel good.... Technically right now they are like on a 100+ game losing streak, every player that has been a part of the program since the wins were voided has lost every game he's payed... What?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F]

Chris D, on 23 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

The NCAA crumbled under the pressure of the general public. How is that fair? Do you see judges basing decisions in criminal matters on the pressure of the public? Not typically, and rarely ever. So why is the NCAA doing so? As a sanctioning body as large as they are, one would believe that they would hold themselves to a high standard. I believe that these sanctions on Penn State were more to appease the general public because they wanted to gain even more fan support, rather than to look at what is fair with the situation. Maybe that is seen as a little close minded to say, but is it really?

Couldn't of said it better myself.

[Spartan Havoc]

At the end of the day, what is the point of vacating Paterno's wins? PSU fans will still remember for generations to come that he has led the program to so many wins. It's nothing you can't stop. Getting rid of wins does nothing IMO. Yeah, this one says you did something very wrong outside of the program, but will the fans really care what Sandusky did in 100 years when he's dead and gone? People will get over this with time. Especially when Penn State will finally move on 10 years after these sanctions.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F]

Spartan Havoc, on 23 July 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

At the end of the day, what is the point of vacating Paterno's wins? PSU fans will still remember for generations to come that he has led the program to so many wins. It's nothing you can't stop. Getting rid of wins does nothing IMO. Yeah, this one says you did something very wrong outside of the program, but will the fans really care what Sandusky did in 100 years when he's dead and gone? People will get over this with time. Especially when Penn State will finally move on 10 years after these sanctions.

I think the NCAA just don't want JoePa to be a figure head in college football anymore. Attempting to erase his name from the record books.

[RogerGoodellSucks]

Getting rid of the wins is so stupid. It's not like raping the kids gave Penn State a competitive edge in winning those football games. JoePa won those games fair and square and he should still be the winningest coach in college football history. Yes, he did make a mistake but that should not take back what he did as coach of Penn State.

[JetsFan4Life]

DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F, on 23 July 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Everything I'm fine with except taking the wins away from the school.

The wins needed to be vacated because they don't want Paterno being honored as the winningest coach, then don't them as wins for him.

Vacating the wins for the program, beyond discounting them for Paterno, doesn't really do anything other than make the NCAA and people calling for hardcore sanctions feel good.... Technically right now they are like on a 100+ game losing streak, every player that has been a part of the program since the wins were voided has lost every game he's payed... What?

This was my biggest problem. I mean I do see the point in vacating wins since 1998 because isn't that when it is supposed that Paterno knew what was going on? But are these vacated from Paterno as a head coach or the university in general? Because if you're vacating them from the university I think that's dumb.

So you're pretty much saying OFFICIALLY every player who has come in since 1998 at Penn State has NEVER won a college football game. That's kind of fucked up to the players to take that away from them...

The fines and bowl ban and all that stuff I'm perfectly okay with. There was a cover up here by the football program in some capacity and they should be punished one way or another.

[NaTaS]

Chris D, on 23 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

So the question is what do you do to punish the school and individuals involved but not the football program, it's tough, but there are ways.

- Fine the school some big money for allowing these massively large issues of integrity to get through the vines in the hiring process, no matter how long ago these hiring were.

If you fine the school you're still punishing innocent individuals. Where do you think the money to recoup the fines will come from? Increased tuition, increase in ticket costs, etc. I'm not arguing against the idea, but it's a tricky situation. How can you punish a school for the integrity issues without hurting the fans, PSU alumni, etc. Like Mav queried: How do you separate the school from the program? How can you punish the program without hurting innocent people?

Tough call.

[NaTaS]

JetsFan4Life, on 23 July 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

So you're pretty much saying OFFICIALLY every player who has come in since 1998 at Penn State has NEVER won a college football game. That's kind of fucked up to the players to take that away from them...

Officially means shit, in my opinion. We all knew what happen. Same as we all know Reggie Bush won the HT. We will remember the "The LaVar Leap" and I wont mentally associate their bowl wins with losses. Maybe it means more to their fans, but to me, I really don't see the officially meaning much.